cratylus- 第19部分

instruments　in　general？



HERMOGENES：　　To　be　sure。



SOCRATES：　　And　now　suppose　that　I　ask　a　similar　question　about　names：　　will

you　answer　me？　　Regarding　the　name　as　an　instrument；　what　do　we　do　when　we

name？



HERMOGENES：　　I　cannot　say。



SOCRATES：　　Do　we　not　give　information　to　one　another；　and　distinguish

things　according　to　their　natures？



HERMOGENES：　　Certainly　we　do。



SOCRATES：　　Then　a　name　is　an　instrument　of　teaching　and　of　distinguishing

natures；　as　the　shuttle　is　of　distinguishing　the　threads　of　the　web。



HERMOGENES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　the　shuttle　is　the　instrument　of　the　weaver？



HERMOGENES：　　Assuredly。



SOCRATES：　　Then　the　weaver　will　use　the　shuttle　welland　well　means　like　a

weaver？　and　the　teacher　will　use　the　name　welland　well　means　like　a

teacher？



HERMOGENES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　when　the　weaver　uses　the　shuttle；　whose　work　will　he　be

using　well？



HERMOGENES：　　That　of　the　carpenter。



SOCRATES：　　And　is　every　man　a　carpenter；　or　the　skilled　only？



HERMOGENES：　　Only　the　skilled。



SOCRATES：　　And　when　the　piercer　uses　the　awl；　whose　work　will　he　be　using

well？



HERMOGENES：　　That　of　the　smith。



SOCRATES：　　And　is　every　man　a　smith；　or　only　the　skilled？



HERMOGENES：　　The　skilled　only。



SOCRATES：　　And　when　the　teacher　uses　the　name；　whose　work　will　he　be　using？



HERMOGENES：　　There　again　I　am　puzzled。



SOCRATES：　　Cannot　you　at　least　say　who　gives　us　the　names　which　we　use？



HERMOGENES：　　Indeed　I　cannot。




SOCRATES：　　Does　not　the　law　seem　to　you　to　give　us　them？



HERMOGENES：　　Yes；　I　suppose　so。



SOCRATES：　　Then　the　teacher；　when　he　gives　us　a　name；　uses　the　work　of　the

legislator？



HERMOGENES：　　I　agree。



SOCRATES：　　And　is　every　man　a　legislator；　or　the　skilled　only？



HERMOGENES：　　The　skilled　only。



SOCRATES：　　Then；　Hermogenes；　not　every　man　is　able　to　give　a　name；　but　only

a　maker　of　names；　and　this　is　the　legislator；　who　of　all　skilled　artisans

in　the　world　is　the　rarest。



HERMOGENES：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　And　how　does　the　legislator　make　names？　and　to　what　does　he

look？　　Consider　this　in　the　light　of　the　previous　instances：　　to　what　does

the　carpenter　look　in　making　the　shuttle？　　Does　he　not　look　to　that　which

is　naturally　fitted　to　act　as　a　shuttle？



HERMOGENES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　And　suppose　the　shuttle　to　be　broken　in　making；　will　he　make

another；　looking　to　the　broken　one？　or　will　he　look　to　the　form　according

to　which　he　made　the　other？



HERMOGENES：　　To　the　latter；　I　should　imagine。



SOCRATES：　　Might　not　that　be　justly　called　the　true　or　ideal　shuttle？



HERMOGENES：　　I　think　so。



SOCRATES：　　And　whatever　shuttles　are　wanted；　for　the　manufacture　of

garments；　thin　or　thick；　of　flaxen；　woollen；　or　other　material；　ought　all

of　them　to　have　the　true　form　of　the　shuttle；　and　whatever　is　the　shuttle

best　adapted　to　each　kind　of　work；　that　ought　to　be　the　form　which　the

maker　produces　in　each　case。



HERMOGENES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　the　same　holds　of　other　instruments：　　when　a　man　has

discovered　the　instrument　which　is　naturally　adapted　to　each　work；　he　must

express　this　natural　form；　and　not　others　which　he　fancies；　in　the

material；　whatever　it　may　be；　which　he　employs；　for　example；　he　ought　to

know　how　to　put　into　iron　the　forms　of　awls　adapted　by　nature　to　their

several　uses？



HERMOGENES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　And　how　to　put　into　wood　forms　of　shuttles　adapted　by　nature　to

their　uses？



HERMOGENES：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　For　the　several　forms　of　shuttles　naturally　answer　to　the

several　kinds　of　webs；　and　this　is　true　of　instruments　in　general。



HERMOGENES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　Then；　as　to　names：　　ought　not　our　legislator　also　to　know　how　to

put　the　true　natural　name　of　each　thing　into　sounds　and　syllables；　and　to

make　and　give　all　names　with　a　view　to　the　ideal　name；　if　he　is　to　be　a

namer　in　any　true　sense？　　And　we　must　remember　that　different　legislators

will　not　use　the　same　syllables。　　For　neither　does　every　smith；　although　he

may　be　making　the　same　instrument　for　the　same　purpose；　make　them　all　of

the　same　iron。　　The　form　must　be　the　same；　but　the　material　may　vary；　and

still　the　instrument　may　be　equally　good　of　whatever　iron　made；　whether　in

Hellas　or　in　a　foreign　country；there　is　no　difference。



HERMOGENES：　　Very　true。



SOCRATES：　　And　the　legislator；　whether　he　be　Hellene　or　barbarian；　is　not

therefore　to　be　deemed　by　you　a　worse　legislator；　provided　he　gives　the

true　and　proper　form　of　the　name　in　whatever　syllables；　this　or　that

country　makes　no　matter。



HERMOGENES：　　Quite　true。



SOCRATES：　　But　who　then　is　to　determine　whether　the　proper　form　is　given　to

the　shuttle；　whatever　sort　of　wood　may　be　used？　the　carpenter　who　makes；　or

the　weaver　who　is　to　use　them？



HERMOGENES：　　I　should　say；　he　who　is　to　use　them；　Socrates。



SOCRATES：　　And　who　uses　the　work　of　the　lyre…maker？　　Will　not　he　be　the　man

who　knows　how　to　direct　what　is　being　done；　and　who　will　know　also　whether

the　work　is　being　well　done　or　not？



HERMOGENES：　　Certainly。



SOCRATES：　　And　who　is　he？



HERMOGENES：　　The　player　of　the　lyre。



SOCRATES：　　And　who　will　direct　the　shipwright？



HERMOGENES：　　The　pilot。



SOCRATES：　　And　who　will　be　best　able　to　direct　the　legislator　in　his　work；

and　will　know　whether　the　work　is　well　done；　in　this　or　any　other　country？　

Will　not　the　user　be　the　man？



HERMOGENES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　this　is　he　who　knows　how　to　ask　questions？



HERMOGENES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　how　to　answer　them？



HERMOGENES：　　Yes。



SOCRATES：　　And　him　who　knows　how　to　ask　and　answer　you　would　call　a

dialectician？



HERMOGENES：　　Yes；　that　would　be　his　name。



SOCRATES：　　Then　the　work　of　the　carpenter　is　to　make　a　rudder；　and　the

pilot　has　to　direct　him；　if　the　rudder　is　to　be　well　made。



HERMOGENES：　　True。



SOCRATES：　　And　the　work　of　the　legislator　is　to　give　names；　and　the

dialectician　must　be　his　director　if　the　names　are　to　be　rightly　given？



HERMOGENES：　　That　is　true。



SOCRATES：　　Then；　Hermogenes；　I　should　say　that　this　giving　of　names　can　be

no　such　light　matter　as　you　fancy；　or　the　work　of　light　or　chance　persons；

and　Cratylus　is　right　in　saying　that　things　have　names　by　nature；　and　that

not　every　man　is　an　artificer　of　names；　but　he　only　who　looks　to　the　name

which　each　thing　by　nature　has；　and　is　able　to　express　the　true　forms　of

things　in　letters　and　syllables。



HERMOGENES：　　I　cannot　answer　you；　Socrates；　but　I　find　a　difficulty　in

changing　my　opinion　all　in　a　moment；　and　I　think　that　I　should　be　more

readily　persuaded；　if　you　would　show　me　what　this　is　which　you　term　the

natural　fitness　of　names。



SOCRATES：　　My　good　Hermogenes；　I　have　none　to　show。　　Was　I　not　telling　you

just　now　（but　you　have　forgotten）；　that　I　knew　nothing；　and　proposing　to

share　the　enquiry　with　you？　　But　now　that　you　and　I　have　talked　over　the

matter；　a　step　has　been　gained；　for　we　have　discovered　that　names　have　by

nature　a　truth；　and　that　not　every　man　knows　how　to　give　a　thing　a　name。



HERMOGENES：　　Very　good。



SOCRATES：　　And　what　is　the　nature　of　this　truth　or　correctness　of　names？　

That；　if　you　care　to　know；　is　the　next　question。



HERMOGENES：　　Certainly；　I　care　to　know。



SOCRATES：　　Then　reflect。



HERMOGENES：　　How　shall　I　reflect？



SOCRATES：　　The　true　way　is　to　have　the　assistance　of　those　who　know；　and

you　must　pay　them　well　both　in　money　and　in　thanks；　these　are　the　Sophists；

of　whom　your　brother；　Callias；　hasrather　dearlybought　the　reputation　of

wisdom。　　But　you　have　not　yet　come　into　your　inheritance；　and　therefore　you

had　better　go　to　him；　and　beg　and　entreat　him　to　tell　you　what　he　has

learnt　from　Protagoras　about　the　fitness　of　names。



HERMOGENES：　　But　how　inconsistent　should　I　be；　if；　whilst　repudiating

Protagoras　and　his　truth　（'Truth'　was　the　title　of　the　book　of　Protagoras；

compare　Theaet。）；　I　were　to　attach　any　value　to　what　he　and　his　book

affirm！



SOCRATES：　　Then　if　you　despise　him；　you　must　learn　of　Homer　and　the　poets。



HERMOGENES：　　And　where　does　Homer　say　anything　about　names；　and　what　does

he　say？



SOCRATES：　　He　often　speaks　of　them；　notably　and　nobly　in　the　places　where

he　distinguishes　the　different　names　which　Gods　and　men　give　to　the　same

things。　　Does　he　not　in　these　passages　make　a　remarkable　statement　about

the　correctness　of　names？　　For　the　Gods　must　clearly　be　supposed　to　call

things　by　their　right　and　natural　names；　do　you　not　think　so？



HERMOGENES：　　Why；　of　course　they　call　them　rightly；　if　they　call　them　at

all。　　But　to　what　are　you　referring？



SOCRATES：　　Do　you　not　know　what　he　says　about　the　river　in　Troy　who　had　a

single　combat　with　Hephaestus？



'Whom；'　as　he　says；　'the　Gods　call　Xanthus；　and　men　call　Scamander。'



HERMOGENES：　　I　remember。



SOCRATES：　　Well；　and　about　this　riverto　know　that　he　ought　to　be　called

Xanthus　and　not　Scamanderis　not　that　a　solemn　lesson？　　Or　about　the　bird

which；　as　he　says；



'The　Gods　call　Chalcis；　and　men　Cymindis：'



to　be　taught　how　much　more　correct　the　name　Chalcis　is　than　the　name

Cymindisdo　you　deem　that　a　light　matter？　　Or　about　Batieia　and　Myrina？　

（Compare　Il。　'The　hill　which　men　call　Batieia　and　the　immortals　the　tomb　of

the　sportive　Myrina。'）　　And　there　are　many　other　observations　of　the　same

kind　in　Homer　and　other　poets。　　Now；　I　think　that　this　is　beyond　the

understanding　of　you　and　me；　but　the　names　of　Scamandrius　and　Astyanax；

which　he　affirms　to　have　been　the　names　of　Hector's　son；　are　more　within

the　range　of　human　faculties；　as　I　am　disposed　to　think；　and　what　the　poet

means　by　correctness　may　be　more　readily　apprehended　in　that　instance：　　you

will　remember　I　dare　say　the　lines　to　which　I　refer？　　（Il。）



HERMOGENES：　　I　do。